Thursday, December 14, 2006

What's this about BJJ vs Wing Chun???

Here's what I think.

First, both arts are very different. BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) focuses on ground grappling techniques, while wing Chun is all about stand up fighting.

Second, it's all about the individual. It's normal that there's always going to be someone better than you out there, and fighting is just the same. The more you train and understand your art, the more your probablility of winning or surviving will be increased.

Now, if both fighters, BJJ and Wing Chun are equally advanced and fit, then Wing Chun will win. Think about it. Wing Chun specialises in the first (hands), second (elbows), and third gate (shoulders) of fighting, while BJJ only focuses on taking someone to the ground. BJJ guys have very basic first and second gate fighting techniques. Most of their stuff is past the third gate, so you tell me how can a BJJ guy enter those first two gates of an advanced Wing Chun guy if they can't even compete at those distances. Their only way is to rush the WC guy below the waist or knees. Granted most people don't know what to do in those cases, but believe me, it's not hard to keep your stance if you've got good structure, footwork, and sensitivity. Mind you that I'm still talking about equal body types. When someone rushes low you should follow and sink/widen your stance. Don't widen your stance with one leg in front and the other in back, because you'll give away your front leg to the BJJ guy. Instead, lower your stance while applying forward/downward energy to the BJJ's neck area. Your legs should be behind you, out of reach from the BJJ guy, and you should be somewhat on top of him. This by default and a little guidance, bring his head near your elbows giving you access to a choke or a kill.

Through my experience in sparring, even though I'm no pro fighter, chasing center and chasing head is the best way to keep your attack/offense pointing at the right place. In most cases, people will generally want to tackle you. What has worked for me in the past is to always have your intensions or energy pointing towards the centerline. That doesn't mean touching the other dudes chest or face or anything, but the intension should be there. Once the guy sinks for a waist or below the waist attack, sink your stance and keep your arms near the person's head. It should be similar to a low Bong Sau and should come naturally. The result is a neck choke. So what if they manage to move your stance, if you have good structure, it would be hard to make you off balance. The bottom line is, where the head goes, the body goes. So if you have the guys head wrapped around your arm, then you have the advantage. You can choke or snap their necks at any sign of movement. Wing Chun guys should be good at that, given their ultra sensitive nature.

So there you go, just follow the head, and tighten your grip. Of course this might not work agains a pro UFC/BJJ guy who's twice your size because their reach and mass can overwhelm your structure. Just be smart about it break their rythm and balance. Always be one step ahead of them.

20 comments:

Crazy Flying said...

question,
Have you ever fought a BJJ fighter?

John Wu said...

Yes I have. Took the guy down twice in a minute. I'm not saying that BJJ sucks or anything. I'm just comparing fighting concepts.

Simon said...

First of all, your graphic is awesome I love it.

I totally agree on the fight concept, all stand up martial arts take vulnerabilities such as eyes, throat into consideration as first gate defense.

BJJ is very effective ground fighting system but it has its vulnerabilities. The fact is that these vulnerabilities cannot be seen in UFC or Pride because of the fighting rules.

I have been practicing both WC and BJJ, and I indeed fought some BJJ fighters before, on the street using non BJJ technique. Well I am not a pro either, one time when I was almost taken to the ground, I pulled that guys hair with one hand and use another hand to nose hook the guy (2 fingers in his noses, arr..) I could have poked his eyes if we were in wars. His noses started bleeding and fight was over.

That guy never expect me pulling hair because that was not in his training. On the other hand, many traditional Wing Chun people don't know what to do when the BJJ guy tries to push him to the ground, again, that's not in their training either!

That's why mixed martial arts comes in. However, Bruce Lee said it 30 years ago long before mixed martial arts became popular.

Dario 2.1 said...

I haven´t fought a BJJ (as far as I know), but I have trained WT, judo, aikido and sambo in the last years, and I have trained with judo, jiujitsu and olimpic wrestlers heavier than me. I can assure you, I haven't felt more indefense than against a WT practitioner, and I'm talking about grappling in the ground.
The first problem to a BJJ fighter against a WT fighter is that you need to reach him and that means pass over his kicks and punches, all of them are directed to the line of equilibrium (that's why it's so difficult to pass) The second problem is that WT is an anything-goes martial art. Anytime you feel a void in your foe's defense, you use it. It's the training, it's the objective. It's not a problem if it's the testicles, the eyes, the nose, anything.
BJJ is very powerful in very close distance because all they train is that distance. If you train 100 hours in very close distance you can do it better than other than train just 40 hours in it. The problem is that most WT have those 40 hours, and other 30 in far distance and other 30 in medium distance.
Anyway, there's too many factors in a fight beyond the style, such as talent, physical abilities (strenght, quickness...) and combative spirit. That's why a fight can't prove what style is better, because there are too many other factors.
About Bruce Lee and mixed martial arts, Bruce Lee was a genious, but not because the reasons most people think. He wasn't specially well trained, just three years and with the more secretive (compared with nowadays) traditional training systems. His technique wasn't specially good. But he had a very fine body, very fine physical abilities, and the will to improve and create answers to the lacks of his training. He's a genious because most people would have limit themselves to what they had trained, and wouldn't develop something on their own like he did.

Innama said...

i like this, and will post on my blog :)

Heath said...

All three of my cousins were Wrestlers they started young and continued through high school. We sparred from time to time but I always managed to get out of holds using pressure points and various things. I used the Guillotine choke to my advantage many times. I also use the Sprawl and teach it to my Wing Chun friends. My cousins were not used to my techniques and hated how I used my fingers to jab them or to dig into pressure points. They left many openings and at times I wasn't able to do much for fear of injuring them. The back of the head and neck was always a target great for an elbow strike and extremely dangerous to leave open. I dropped one with a light ridge hand to the groin when he wouldn't let off. I sprawled and when I couldn't get him off pushed his head down ran my arm under his side and struck upward into his groin. I like grappling but I don't know much. Wing Chun is at present my main focus. I have yet to meet a BJJ fighter. I have only had Wrestlers to deal with but so far never had an issue. We have many Wrestlers here and a couple of Boxing schools as well as Karate, an MMA gym and our private Wing Chun school.

shekhar said...

http://www.jiujitsuforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1522

BJJs strength is in that it is always evolving and the sparring is 100% real.

Unknown said...

With all due respect, do we really think that anything besides consistent, dedicated training in wrestling can stop a low single or a power double? I would highly disagree. Most competition Bjj guys are well versed in wrestling/judo as this is an essential part of mastering the system.

For it to even come up that Bjj guys aren't used to getting their hair pulled because it isn't part of their system is just silly to me. In what system do they actually pull the hair? Or we gouge? Or fish hook? Do they do it in live sparring? Look... As martial artists, we're trained in certain systems. As human beings, we know that a real fight is a real fight. To assume that a guy who trains in Bjj is less likely than a boxer or ninja or whomever; to pull some hair or bite a leg when in a life or death situation, well that's just absurd to me.

Unknown said...

With all due respect, do we really think that anything besides consistent, dedicated training in wrestling can stop a low single or a power double? I would highly disagree. Most competition Bjj guys are well versed in wrestling/judo as this is an essential part of mastering the system.

For it to even come up that Bjj guys aren't used to getting their hair pulled because it isn't part of their system is just silly to me. In what system do they actually pull the hair? Or we gouge? Or fish hook? Do they do it in live sparring? Look... As martial artists, we're trained in certain systems. As human beings, we know that a real fight is a real fight. To assume that a guy who trains in Bjj is less likely than a boxer or ninja or whomever; to pull some hair or bite a leg when in a life or death situation, well that's just absurd to me.

Vinny A. said...

First I want to say to all of you that wing chun is a close combat system. There IS no middle or long distance in wingchun. If you are at that distance, then you don't know how to use wing chun. You need to learn the 10 wing chun concepts that make wingchun an effective and efficient form of self defence. And as far as mixing any other style, THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE! Those 10 concepts are there for a reason. The big ones, like the centerline theory, the triangle theory, always keeping square to your opponent,immoveable elbow concept,maintaining the triangle, and always maintaining forward pressure are crucial. If you mix other styles like bagua, grappling, karate and other styles that DON'T use these concepts, you are actually making wing chun LESS EFFECTIVE AND LESS EFFICIENT!! If you want to learn to fight against grapplers, then learn wing chun anti-takedown and anti-grappling techniques that you find right here on You Tube. Grappling in and of itself is inefficient and ineffective if you know how to defend against it. Regardless of what some of these MMA fanboys say, it is not good for self defence. Don't be fooled into believing otherwise! Wing chun IS the best self defence out there. All you need to do is follow the 10concepts to the letter, using ALL OF THEM, and practice until you become proficient. When you do, you will be able to handle most anyone, even someone who has a considerable experience in streetfighting and grappling.

Vinny A. said...

Ok John, if you won't say BJJ and GJJ sucks, then I WILL!! BJJ AND GJJ ARE WORTHLESS ON THE STREET!! JUST LIKE CAPIOERA, AND MOST KUNG FU STYLES!! THEY RELY ON OUTDATED SYSTEMS THAT NO LONGER APPLY IN THE 21ST CENTURY! THE BEST SYSTEM IS WING CHUN, BUT MILITARY AND POLICE SYSTEMS LIKE KRAV MAGA ARE GREAT TOO BECAUSE THOSE SYSTEMS TEACH REAL LIFE SELF DEFENCE. OH,AND JKD IS GOOD TOO BECAUSE IT HAS A WINGCHUN FOUNDATION.

Vinny A. said...

To the unknown guy who left that comment, you don't know what the hell you are talking about!! Grapplers are easy to handle once you know how, and all the training in the world will not help you once a wingchun guy has you down, has trapped one of your arms, and is pounding you to mincemeat!! What system pulls hair and bites?? It's called a real self defence system. And that ISN'T BJJ OR GJJ WHICH ISN'T A REAL SELF DEFENCE SYSTEM.

Greenertea81 said...

Regardless of if it's Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Western Boxing or any other art that focusses on Stand up, it really just takes a basic knowledge of Weight Distribution & Body mechanics to give your average grappler a tough time. With the exposure that Gracie style Jiu-Jitsu has had in the martial arts mainstream over the past decade you would have to be a blind man to not see how The system works or how it counters strikers and grapplers alike. I doubt I will be able to submit a high leve disciplinedl grappler any time soon but against your average "I train Bjj twice a week, I'll choke you out" Tough guy...I'll be alert but confident in my Wing Chun skills. (please note I have respect for ALL martial arts including Gracie Jiu-Jitsu). God Bless.

Marcos Rey said...

Well in street figth situation BJJ is not the best self defense system (for many reasons, but i will not explain rigth now). Anyway not always wing chun is efective. Wing chun, I believe itś wonderful in a empty hands figth (maybe the best in this area), but if you deal agains a knife (for example) WC is useless because tan sao, fuk sao, etc. (from inside enemy's arm) are easy meat for a blade. Maybe kali/Skrima/Arnis are better in such matter.

Marcos Rey said...

Well in street figth situation BJJ is not the best self defense system (for many reasons, but i will not explain rigth now). Anyway not always wing chun is efective. Wing chun, I believe itś wonderful in a empty hands figth (maybe the best in this area), but if you deal agains a knife (for example) WC is useless because tan sao, fuk sao, etc. (from inside enemy's arm) are easy meat for a blade. Maybe kali/Skrima/Arnis are better in such matter.

Boris NS said...

I had a sparring vs wing chun master last night and it was very easy to take him down and finish there. absolutly no tehnique on ground and also in stand up i could easly clinch with him. only problem (small) was short distance cause we fought in 3.5 x 2.5 meters and i couldnt move basicly away from him. i am 70 kg and he is 101,both out of condition.
if we take same quality of guys,both wc and bjj and same condition, wc absolutly dont have chance. i believe wc is good for street fight vs uneducated fighters,but vs skilled bjj fighter,wrestler, muy thai or boxing fighter,i think its not good...

Joffer Bathan said...

Why not both? because not all the times you can stand up there`s a 50-50 chance of you being on the ground because not only the double leg takedown is used if you open your arm and the grappler grabs it you may be taken down but you can also counter it I have encountered a wing chun fighter IM a white belt in bjj I admit Wing chun is a great martial art I can`t grab him when I do a double leg takedown he countered it so I stood up again, I get the leg fast enough so he can`t counter it then i tripped him and pushed him down to the ground that is the time when I won I did a rear naked choke to him. The second match is when I did a flying armbar because HE KNOWS WING CHUN I CAN`T TAKE HIM DOWN EASY! but when I locked it I was surprised how he carry me! then slam me on the ground so I was defeated now it`s 1 - 1 the third match I grabbed him then he almost poked my eyes but I grab his arm then did an arm throw then submit him with an arm bar. both is almost the same rating but ther`s weakneses and strenghts of both styles so why not both?

Steve Grogan said...

*sigh*

Wing chun has no long or mid-range game? Then how do you account for us closing the gap?

Also, when it comes to being faced with someone who has a knife, wing chun is not the only style that would be useless in that scenario. In fact, I say that if you are empty handed, then you should ALWAYS run from someone with a knife whenever possible.

Last but not least, there are ways to keep someone fromg going for your legs...again, no matter WHAT style you study. Think about it: If I train in Tae Kwon Do and my range is kicking, then I am going to train to keep my opponent out where my kicks will land with the most power. Same goes for wing chun.

And not for nothing, but if one BJJ practitioner trains to keep ANOTHER BJJ person from entering for a takedown, then don't you think other styles would ALSO train to keep that BJJ person at bay?

Unknown said...

https://youtu.be/S2BqXgoE12A

Spenser Hopkins said...

Nobody here understands takedowns, throws, trips from the way a grappled sees it. No grappled blindly shoots for a double (and a double isnt the only takedown). Grapplers work angles also and move around till they see a weakness in the opponents stance then applies a technoque.this reduces the effectiveness of a single strike disabling a grappler. Not only that, but 99% of people dont havr the ability to drop someone with 1 strike. Now from the time a grappler shoots his opponent has half a second or less to observe the shot, orient and throw an accurate strike. Not saying it doesnt happen, but its extremely unlikely even for trained fighters.